The crisis in the Peoples Democratic Party, PDP, is not new to
Nigerians. What, however, is new is the fact that it does appear that
the crisis may not be about to end.
Will some members of the party be expelled for anti-party activities?
Nobody can say. Even Gemade, the party’s chairman, was not forth-coming
on that other than that “we would have no choice other than to begin to
apply the rules very strictly. And I think when we begin to do that,
people will begin to see that lack of discipline is inherent in the
leadership of the PDP. It is just because when you try to give people a
chance to reconcile differences, if you do not wield the big stick, you
just find that people become grossly undisciplined”.
If, after the 1999 Abuja Convention of the party, people expected the
situation in the party to jump from one discordant end of the continuum
to the other peaceful end, how misplaced that expectation is turning out
to be.
More than that, there have been talks about the inadequacy of the PDP
leadership. Gemade puts a lie to this; he says he is not weak: “There is
nothing more mischievous than that; that is mischievous. And I don’t
think anybody who has ever ran a party would agree that the leadership
of the PDP is a weak one. I have ran a party at a very difficult stage;
and now I am running another party in my capacity as National Chairman.
These things are not easy but people think you can just explain it away
by saying that somebody is weak. There is no such thing as weakness. I
am not weak. Neither is the leadership weak.
But what is his problem with Chief Sunday Awoniyi. He says he doesn’t
have a problem but…
Is he not Obasanjo’s puppet? “It goes without saying that the
president is the leader of the party. This is in the context of the fact
that he is the image of the party. In operating the party, the national
chairman of the party is in charge; but the image of the party which is
seen globally goes beyond the party and it involves the president, all
the state governors, the national assembly all put together as the
government and the president is there as the head of that group.”
No matter. He reveals, even if tangentially, what he has had to
discuss with Chief Awoniyi on phone pursuant to solving the problem on
the ground.
On the sale of the Benue Cement Company, BCC, which partly led to the
ousting of the Minister of Industries, Iyorchia Ayu, Gemade says it is
unfortunate and explains why.
This interview, conducted by the Political Editor, Jide Ajani, and
our Abuja Cameraman, Abayomi Adeshida, the duo of Gbenga Olawepo, the
party’s National Publicity Secretary, and Muyiwa Collins, the Assistant
Director of Publicity, played a role, particularly, the former.
Excerpts: When people outside look at the Peoples Democratic Party,
PDP, what they see is a party in crisis. What would you want to describe
as your achievements in the last seven to eight months as National
Chairman.
If you don’t blow your trumpet in this country, nobody will blow it
for you. It’s been one crisis after the other, as you saw the one
between the Executive arm of government and the Legislative arm over the
budget 2000 and as it affected certain Bills under consideration. Within
the first two to three weeks, this matter we dealt with one after the
other making it possible for Bills to be passed. There were also intra-
party disagreement at the National Assembly, two factions of the Senate
were involved.
We also came in and we also made a Press Conference with the leaders
of the two factions sitting beside me. These are achievements of party
leadership by way of organizing and handling the affairs of its members.
As you are aware, the PDP of last year is not what we have today. We
have moved from our former office to a more spacious secretariat; and we
are also re-organizing the secretariat for efficiency. We also have a
full programme of activities for the year, which seeks to implement our
promises to party members during my campaign that we will not only re-
organize and re-focus this party but we’ll make sure that we create the
party as a lasting political institution. Along with this, we would also
create some sharp democratic institutions with a view to supporting the
values of democratic system. And this has to do with the creation of the
PDP Democratic Institute - which is in the offing. We also intend having
a Press Academy, which would churn out publications for the party. Apart
from that, party organs that were not operational before I became
Chairman have been fully revitalized and they are working now - the
party caucuses, the working committees, the standing committees. And
these are not only at the national levels but also at all the levels;
and we intend to continue working to ensure this at all levels.
Just after the victory of Chief Olusegun Obasanjo at the Jos
Convention, his campaign machinery down-played the party secretariats at
the state level, turning it over to the residences and offices of the
PDP governors elect, then. This same problem is largely seen in some
quarters as being responsible for the topsy-turvy in the National
Assembly where your party holds sway, but with little consensus. You
have had course to come in and douse the fire. For how long will this
continue Well, what is happening in the polity today is not just about
consensus building, or a PDP thing. It is a matter of some forces at
play and these forces do not want democracy, which Nigerians desire so
much to succeed; these are people who would benefit if it is truncated
again; and they are working very hard. And to be quite frank with you,
the National Assembly is not working independently of these forces;
these forces are at play every time and people are always coming in to
manipulate even members of the National Assembly with a view to ensuring
that there is really no progress made on serious national issues. So, it
should not be seen as an entirely PDP problem within the National
Assembly. And even when things are done there are people out there who
would say ‘no, don’t allow them, they should pay you more money, they
should do these or do that. Even things which, when the military was
ruling, found difficult to do, people are now pushing some other people
to do them now just to stretch things to the limit. These are the real
issues that are really at the bottom of the matter and not just a PDP-
controlled Assembly not being able to agree.
Now, people insist, and I’m quite sure you have heard this yourself,
that the leadership of the PDP, as symbolized by you, is a very weak one
- and this is a view across the board in the Senate and the House of
Reps as well as the State Legislative Chambers. And some events don’t
really give cause for joy. Are you a weak leader.
There is nothing more mischievous than that.
Before you go any further, that’s just a premise for the next
question Even as a premise, that is mischievous. And I don’t think
anybody who has ever ran a party would agree that the leadership of the
PDP is a weak one. Those who are saying that have never run a party
before. And just by attempting to be the National Chairman of a
political party or to seek a national office in a political party does
not give you the right to knowledge. I have ran a party at a very
difficult stage; and now I am running another party in my capacity as
National Chairman. These things are not easy but people think you can
just explain it away by saying that somebody is weak. There is no such
thing as weakness. I am not weak. Neither is the leadership weak.
For all the mess that Nigerians witnessed in the National Assembly
during the Second Republic, Nigerians are alarmed that your party, which
is touted as the largest political party in Africa, has put people who
seem not to have the interest of not just Nigerians but even their
party. This, people allude to gross indiscipline, which you also talked
about in your speech at the NEC meeting. How does this leadership which
you say is not weak intend dealing with this issue of indiscipline.
We have already stated clearly that we gave a period of ushering in
the new position of the party; and that is a position of strong
disciplinary measures taken against people who err or who derail as far
as the party’s position is concerned. That period was given specifically
because of those who could not conform because of their own
dissatisfaction and have been given enough time to conform.
Any idea of expelling people from the party? At this moment, we feel
very strongly that a situation where we allow people so much time to
conform with the rules and regulations of the party is beginning to give
the impression that we are weak and an undisciplined group of people, we
would have no choice other than to begin to apply the rules very
strictly. And I think when we begin to do that, people will begin to see
that lack of discipline is inherent in the leadership of the PDP. It is
just because when you try to give people a chance to reconcile
differences, if you do not wield the big stick, you just find that
people become grossly undisciplined as we have seen happening in the
party.
What actually is your problem with Chief Sunday Awoniyi, or with the
group to which he belongs? Well, there is really no problem between me
and that group. I think the problem is with the party as a whole, with
Nigeria as a whole.
And let me be very frank with you here. As I said before, with due
respects, we have come to a point where a lot of things have happened in
this country before. This thing they call power shift, people understood
it from a very narrow angle- that is power shift from north to south.
The president is not from the NorthWest as it was traditionally, but now
from the SouthWest; and that is it. But that is not the only thing. Many
aspects of our national life have had a shift. And one of them is the
generational one. We have had a situation where just after independence,
some few young Nigerians who had good education got good jobs in
government and have continued to be there, but who must now give way to
the young ones. This is the main problem.
But the impression people outside have is that the convention of last
year is the main issue and that everything since then has been along the
lines of those who won and those who lost? You see, there must be a
reason for people to do something; there must be a basis. Some people
have continued to say that they didn’t win that election because they
were cheated; but there were many other elections that they had lost
before that one; but they never had been bothering Nigeria. With due
respects, most of these people have, either before coming to PDP, or
since joining the party have lost one election or the other, and we have
had many elections since this dispensation but have kept quiet. But why
must they continue to talk about this election over and over again; an
election which was internal and which, therefore, should be taken
lightly. When you lose an election against a party where your party is
weak, you don’t even bother about it; and then the other election which
is an internal one which somebody else wins, you are talking about it
for a year. It doesn’t make any sense and that is to show you that the
issue is not about election. The real issue is that some people just
still can’t measure up to the idea that it is time to give way to other
people. And when we say people should give way, we are not saying that
they should go and die. There are many respectable ways people can serve
the party. There are still opportunities and many of those people who
are complaining of being marginalised. Yes, you may not be a minister
but you can become the chairman of a board.
Some people believe that the Awoniyi group has a well-founded basis
to feel the way they feel, that after the convention, you did not extend
a true hand of fellowship and that you carried on in a manner indicative
of self-styled arrogance. Does it not bother you that some people in
your party were able to call a well-attended meeting of the party while
your own executive committee is still in office? Let me first answer the
first question concerning the hand of fellowship. I don’t think that is
correct. Because what would have taken me four times to go to Chief
Awoniyi’s house, if I wasn’t practicalising my gesture of goodwill. I
have met him once in a properly organized meeting in his house; and I
have placed as many as 16 phone calls to his house- I have not been
really counting, I’m just giving figures. And on a number of occasions
he actually spoke to me on the phone and that is how it was with some
other members. But later I began to realize that there were problems.
During those discussions didn’t you people come to a sort of
compromise, or terms of agreement? What impression did you come away
with each time there was a discussion? Well, it is not really how I
felt, but it’s more a matter of how the party perceived the thing. This
reconciliatory moves went as far as calling a National Executive Council
meeting.
What exactly did Chief Awoniyi tell you? Chief Awoniyi said,
‘Barnabas- he calls me by my first name, and he is old enough to do so.
I have talked to Dr. Alex Ekwueme, he will talk to you.’ And later on
I spoke with Dr. Ekwueme that ‘Chief Sunday Awoniyi says he had talked
with you that I should discuss with you.’ And he said yes that he said I
should call a meeting of the party leadership and them, so that this
matter can be resolved and that he would like the president and vice
president to be present. And I said, beautiful. That meeting was held
and we all went and we discussed most heartily and everything was done.
Somebody gave the opening prayers the Muslim way and Chief Awoniyi said
the Christian closing prayers. We all agreed that everything would be
put behind us and we’ll move on.
So, why hasn’t everything been put behind? You see, unfortunately,
the following day, Chief Awoniyi addressed a press conference and
brought us back to square one and another member of that group went and
sued us in court. So, I believe that certain times, reading somebody’s
face no longer gives the right answer. If what people tell you today is
going to be different from what they would do tomorrow, then integrity
is no longer there. Integrity should be by the way people do things and
not by the way they say it.
The meeting that was held could end up leaving you without a party.
Now, what was your first reaction when you heard that some people have
taken the bull by the horn because in fairness to them, they said they
were calling the meeting in order to arrest the problems of the party? I
was disappointed. And I think that when you place those qualities which
they have or the qualities which some of them claim to have, against
their action, you have no point other than to feel disappointed. If it
were just some of them, I would not feel worried but you have some
people who are quite distinguished among them and that is what is
worrisome. It is a matter of trying to carry some people along in a
cause whose personalities do not match that cause.
So, what would be your response to the issue of decamping should it
turn out that way with what is going on now, saying ‘if we can’t get
what we want in PDP, we’ll go somewhere else and get it? I would advise
people not to do that, because it is better to stay where they know you
than to go where you are not known especially when you are not so lucky
with electoral victory. It is better to remain in your own party rather
than go somewhere else and lose respect.
Somebody once declared that the PDP did not elect an executive that
should antagonize the government of Chief Obasanjo. But that
relationship appears to have assumed a sub-servient dimension, and that
is what makes people allege that you are not a man of your own and that
you’re only leaning on the President hence the problems on the ground,
between the exco and the legislature? It goes without saying that the
president is the leader of the party. This is in the context of the fact
that he is the image of the party. In operating the party, the national
chairman of the party is in charge; but the image of the party which is
seen globally goes beyond the party and it involves the president, all
the state governors, the national assembly all put together as the
government and the president is there as the head of that group. So, it
is very important for members of the party to be mindful of that image
that is carved around the president. And if anybody thinks that we
should be ignorant of that and that we should also go out and harass the
president like a union or a pressure group that constantly disturbs, and
whoever feels it should be that way and be subsumed in the criticism of
the president, then the person doesn’t understand the workings of a
political party. There was no serious argument between Alhaji Shehu
Shagari and Chief Adisa Akinloye, in the open during the Second
Republic. This is not because there was any special arrangement, it is
just that it is the duty of the party to protect the government and Mr.
President who is a representative and symbol of the party. And that
government is protected at all levels. How many times have we had to
lead a fight against the impeachment of the president; but I have rushed
out to fight against or plead against the impeachment of leaders of the
legislative chambers for which they came here to thank me and
congratulate me for what I did. So, to where am I giving more support.
Ironically, the accusation comes more from members of the National
Assembly that your leadership is leaning more to the president.
No. No. They do not understand. They do not understand. And I have
spoken to members of the National Assembly on several occasions, and
each time we lay our cards on the table for all, they discover that
those making such allegations and accusations are the ones saying ‘give
me the leadership so I can fight Obasanjo. That is not the issue and
that is not the way it is done - to give people what they ask for
always. Nigeria has changed for the better and it is no longer business
as usual. So, if it was easy to handle things in a particular way in the
past and they now see that things are no longer going to be handled that
way again, they should not make it appear as if heaven is going to fall.
Okay, in all these President Obasanjo can not be said to be
faultless. What faults would you want to admit that Obasanjo has and how
would you advise that he handles some issues.
Just as I go to the National Assembly to hold caucus meetings
secretly with the members, I do so with the president, I go there to
talk to him and offer advice. I do not think it is proper for me to
advise the president publicly.
But people would say there he goes again, ‘the PDP chairman has been
said to be subservient to the president.
The minute I begin to advise the president in the media, as my
colleagues were trying to tell the PDP exco how to run the party, then
it is an affront and it means that person does not have any knowledge of
what his job is all about. And I don’t think you are doing me any good
to press me to do that. That’s not the way the job should be done; the
job should be done in such a way that you meet the people at the right
place at the right time.
What should Nigerians expect from your PDP in the years ahead.
Well the people should expect a more dynamic party. Nigerians are not
looking for appointments, they are looking for dividends in concrete
terms and not all these distractions. What they are looking for is for
Nigeria to become better. And this is what we are set to do. Although it
is going to be difficult because things have really gone very bad.
Things have gone really bad. In the past, there used to be a Nigerian
Railway train every six hours; but now may be it is once a week. These
are the things we are working towards rebuilding and not the
distractions from some people. How I wish that some of the people
talking the way they are doing today know and appreciate how bad things
have gone; but more importantly be humble enough to admit that while
things were going bad, they, too, were partly responsible for it because
they were there.
Let’s go home. The Benue Cement Company, BCC, was put up for partial
sale (in respect of the government shares). The whole thing became a bit
messy when the people in whose locale the company is located came out to
say the sale should be handled in a particular manner and you then have
the governor of the state saying publicly that he would resist with his
blood. How does that make you feel as the national chairman of the party
controlling the federal government, with a minister out of government in
the process and in whose state the company is located.
I must assure you that I have a very strong opinion on this issue and
I believe that what has happened is very unfortunate. It is very
unfortunate indeed and I believe that even if what the governor of Benue
State was trying to do had a good cause, I think he exhibited immaturity
in its handling as the head of the government of a state. It is
unfortunate that he has handled things in such a manner that makes me
feel sad. Sad because, things didn’t happen normally. There was a
procedure, and the process of privatization had been going on. In 1989,
I was there as head of that company when the federal government sold
twenty per cent of its shares, and this time it was to sell the
remaining shares. The procedure had been defined in advance by the
privatization laws of this nation and luckily enough, a minister from my
state was involved. It starts at the ministerial level where those who
want to bid are taken round. When that is done, the process shifts to
the Bureau for Public Enterprises, that operates under the National
Council on Privatization; the minister was again a member of that
committee. When they finish, they report back to the National Executive
Committee, of which the minister is a member. And I believe that the
processes would have been watched very carefully, not only that, but
also handled carefully, because they were party to everything that was
going on and if there was any problem, the governor should have
presented what he is presenting to us now earlier. And we are as
sensitive as he is on matters of survival concerning businesses in our
area especially the BCC because it is the major business source in the
place. But to wait until everything was done to now come out and
challenge the federal government, I don’t think that was wise enough.
But more than that, the matter has assumed some propaganda
dimensions, to the extent that it is now being said that if the company
could be sold to outsiders and the chairman of the government party is
from that same area, then it must have been endorsed by him when in
actual fact those who knew about it from the onset did not think the
national chairman of the party was relevant in what they were doing. But
I believe every problem must be solved and I am willing to solve it
provided all parties concerned are willing to talk.